He is now the founder of Design Pickle, a graphic design subscription service that offers unlimited requests and revisions for a monthly fee.
My guest is also a creative consultant at Digital and Disruptive, where he hosts workshops to help companies rapidly develop marketing or brand strategies.
He is a charitable guy and has been on the board of directors for the Alzheimers Association and is the co-founder of One Small Business, which provides entrepreneurial education for young people.
Now, let's hack…
In this 31-minute episode Russ Perry and I discuss:
- Figuring out ways to build a system
- Getting lucky in business (is not about being lucky)
- Your past 10 years is just practice for today
- The power of knowing (that you don't know much)
- Hiring the best people to do things you're not good at
The Show Notes
- Design Pickle Website
- Design Pickle on Instagram
- Russ on LinkedIn
- Russ on Twitter
- Design Pickle on Twitter
- Jon on Twitter
How to Build a Business That Lets You Live the Life You Want
Voiceover: Welcome to Hack the Entrepreneur, the show which reveals the fears, habits, and inner battles behind big-name entrepreneurs and those on their way to joining them. Now here is your host, Jon Nastor.
Jonny Nastor: Welcome back to Hack the Entrepreneur. I am so glad you decided to join me today. I'm your host, Jon Nastor, but you can call me ‘Jonny.’
My guest today has been involved in branding and marketing strategy for over a decade and has worked to shift the status quo with brands such as Apple and Morgan Stanley. He is now the founder of Design Pickle, a graphic design subscription service that offers unlimited requests and revisions for a monthly fee.
My guest is also a creative consultant at Digital & Disruptive, where he hosts workshops to help companies rapidly develop marketing or build brand strategies. He is a charitable guy and has been on the board of directors for the Alzheimer's Association and is the co-founder of one small business, which provides entrepreneurial education for young people.
Now, let's hack Russ Perry.
Welcome back to another episode of Hack the Entrepreneur. We have a very, very cool guest today. Russ, thank you so much for joining me.
Russ Perry: Yeah, you bet, Jon. Thanks for having me today.
Jonny Nastor: It is my pleasure. Let's jump straight into it, shall we?
Russ Perry: Absolutely.
Figuring out Ways to Build a System
Jonny Nastor: Russ, as an entrepreneur, can you tell me, what is the one thing that you do that you feel has been the biggest contributor to your successes so far?
Russ Perry: Hmm. I know ‘luck’ is one of those cop-out answers I probably shouldn't throw it there. I think for me, it's being able to assemble the right resources to put together in the business. I think a lot of times, as I look back at the failures that I've had, it was when I have tried to do too much myself. That's a common trap a lot of entrepreneurs fall into, because we're good at everything, and we know exactly what we want.
To be truly successful, you have to figure out ways to build systems or bring on people to expand whatever you're doing beyond yourself. I tend to have a knack for that, and whether that's getting people on my team or creating systems with technology and software, that's where my strengths probably lie. I've been able to use that through several businesses and growing them and making a little bit of money along the way.
Jonny Nastor: Which isn't so bad.
Russ Perry: It's not. I've also lost a lot of money too, so …
Jonny Nastor: Of course. We all have.
Russ Perry: It goes both ways.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, and the luck — there obviously is a certain amount of luck in timing, being in the right place at the right time, online or wherever you are in your business. But you have to be there. You have to be doing that for luck to find you, right?
Getting Lucky in Business (Is Not about Being Lucky)
Russ Perry: Yeah, and luck, you could look at luck as just a probability type of thing. I have a friend who would always win these contests. I'd be like — his name's Dave — “Dave, you're so lucky. You always win. You win these crazy contests to go to Las Vegas and TVs,” and he's like, “Russ, I enter like 20 contests a day.” He's statistically more probable to win.
I think for luck, it's the same thing. People who are ‘lucky’ aren't necessarily getting more advantages than other people or the universe is favoring them. It's just that they're putting themselves out there more. They're trying more things. They're creating more connections that could lead to other stuff, and that to me is really how I interpret luck. Just creating more of a mathematical probability that you're going to meet or get whatever you want.
Jonny Nastor: Exactly. Exactly. I'm glad you made that clarification, because you're right. It's like, looking at Dave, it looks like he wins all the time. But he also enters all the time.
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: People can look at you and be like, “Oh, Russ, you're so lucky with business and stuff.” It's like, “Man, I work my ass off. I have for a long time.” It's not really luck. That's cool.
Your Past 10 Years Is Just Practice for Today
Russ Perry: My business coach said that the last 10 years have been practice for today. I was lamenting over a couple of businesses I had over the last decade. She's like, “Oh, that was just practice for today.” I was like, “That's an interesting way to look at it.”
Jonny Nastor: That is. How long have you had a business coach for?
Russ Perry: Man, I've always had one off and on. I find myself to really thrive in that kind of environment, the accountability and the perspective that a coach provides.
This current one I hired at the beginning of the year, really right around when I was launching Design Pickle. I've been working with her, her name's Dena Patton, I've been working with her. We work every other week, have a call, and it's great. I love it. I highly recommend getting a business coach. That's a really powerful thing, especially if you're just on your own, doing your own thing, because you don't really have that accountability like you would if you were in a team.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, no, exactly. That's why, when you mentioned it, I wanted to ask. How did you go about finding her? How in the past have you gone about finding a business coach?
Russ Perry: This specific coach — it's a quick, funny story — I was at a conference, and she was speaking and presenting on some other topics, and mentioned she did coaching, but coaching for women. I was like, “Oh, that's a bummer.” I thought she was really smart and really liked her content. So I actually referred her to my wife, who just started her business. I was like, “Hey, you should look into a coach.” My wife is very cynical of the idea of coaching. She is like, “So I'm going to pay all this money to talk to somebody? That sounds stupid.”
She got off her intro call with Dena and hired her on the spot. I was like, “Holy smokes. If this woman's good enough that Mika, my wife, is going to hire her on the spot, then I should talk to her.” I talked to her and she's like, “Well, Russ, yeah, I work with women business owners, but I also work with really smart men.” I was like, “Oh, that's a genius sales line.” I had to hire her at that point.
Other than that, I think coaching is very personal, so there are all different styles of coaches. It's frankly easy to find them, searching in your local community for business coaches. There are all sorts of training programs they go through. Some are trained, and some aren't, but for me, I've always just come across them, usually in a conference setting.
Jonny Nastor: Nice. Excellent. I love how the past 10 years has been practice for today. That leads us nicely into this question of, in every entrepreneur's life, there seems to be this time when they realize one of two things. Either they have this calling to make something big in the world, something bigger than themselves, or as mostly seems to be the case, they find they simply can't work for somebody else.
Can you, Russ, take us back and tell us what side of the fence you sit on and when you discovered this about yourself?
Russ Perry: Yeah, it's really clear for me. I was working for Apple here in Arizona, where I'm at. I worked for them in college at the university doing stuff for them, and that was fun. I helped them launch the iPod back in the day. Then after college, I was working for them as they were launching the retail stores.
However, I had just had my first daughter, who will be 10 this year, so that's about 10 years ago. I was freelancing and doing my own thing, but I wouldn't have considered myself an entrepreneur.
I was working for Apple, and then I was doing some stuff on the side. I actually, when my daughter was born, was really limited with the amount of time I could take off of work, because me and her mom weren’t together. We were just friends, and whoops, we had a baby. I was trying to navigate all these doctor's appointments and seeing my daughter and all this stuff. I was like, “This sucks. I hate working for somebody.” Requesting time off just to be able to go to a doctor's appointment seemed like the craziest thing for me.
Again, the stars aligned, and I had one friend who provided me with enough of an opportunity to go out on my own. In 2005, I actually started my first agency formally. I had filed the business paperwork and that was that.
I think I was the latter of your two options, thinking I don't want to work for somebody. I don't want to have to navigate a paid-time-off policy.
Jonny Nastor: I guess that's still your case.
Russ Perry: Yeah, yeah.
Jonny Nastor: The further you get now, right?
Russ Perry: I would say, I was technically unemployed last year. I closed my last business in September of 2014. I had no plan, so there were real conversations with my wife about getting a ‘real job.’ I kind of cheated. I did consulting, which is like getting a real job, but kind of not, so that was good. But becoming an employee again and going through all that, it's almost like my mind couldn't comprehend that. Then I figured out what my next thing was going to be with Design Pickle.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, that's interesting. That's an interesting place to be in, especially after so many years on your own. You said your wife's an entrepreneur as well?
Russ Perry: Yeah, she's a new one. It's a scary place. I was really freaked out, to be honest. I didn't know what I was going to do, and I have two girls now and one more on the way. My wife wasn't pregnant then, but I still had a family. To not know what your plan is is really scary. For an entrepreneur who usually always has a plan, that's a very unusual place.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah. Was there a process that you could, say, replicate or go through again to discover where you wanted to go and focus your efforts, which became Design Pickle, but like you said, you had no idea.
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: That's a hard place to be.
Russ Perry: Yeah. I started really poorly in terms of figuring out, and it was whatever idea came into my mind, I started being like, “Oh, I'm going to do this. I'm going to think about this.” I was really dangerous, because I was most certainly in a place of scarcity. I was in a place where everything seemed like a good idea, frankly because I didn't know what I was going to do.
I actually also hired a coach, a different coach this time — this was in October — a guy named Taylor Pearson. I had not met him, saw some of his writing on some forums and things, a really prolific guy. I hired him. I was like, “You seem like an analytical guy. Help me sort through all this.”
We did two exercises, which was really simple. One was ‘describe your life three years from now, irrelevant of your work.’ What do you want your lifestyle to be like? If you've accomplished this and this is what's happening, you're really happy. I wrote that.
Then he's like, “Okay, I want you to make a decision-making filter.” These are the things that need to be true for you to achieve that three-year outcome. For me, I had a lot of travel and time away and visiting Asia with my family and doing a summer in Italy. For my decision-making filter, my next professional thing clearly would need to be remote. I would need to be able to work with it anywhere in the world. Maybe I would have an office, but my business couldn't be dependent on me being in a physical location.
I created this list of decision-making filters. I think there was like seven or eight items on it. When I took all my ideas and ran them through this filter, all of them failed. None of them passed, and so I had no ideas left in October. I just consulted. I had a couple friends that I helped out with their marketing stuff, and I didn't come up with new ideas.
Every time a new idea would come up, I would run it through this filter, and it wasn't until December when the idea of Design Pickle came to my mind. That was the first idea that had passed all the filters. That's when I started to realize I was on to something.
Jonny Nastor: That's really cool. Basically, it's like working backwards, right?
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: Think of the business you want to create and the life you want. It was even outside of business, but what life do you want, which is even more important. Otherwise, we just create businesses, and then three years from now, you're like, “This isn't what I wanted,” but you're stuck in this business you created. Now you're actually creating what you want, the life you want three years from now.
Russ Perry: Absolutely. It's hard to change things. Even one year into a business, it's super hard to change stuff, to go from an office to a virtual-only environment. I was actually talking to some guys today, and one guy was like, “Russ, it seems like you have no friction with employees. You have this model that you've used for Design Pickle, and everything seems to be self-sustaining.” I said, “Yeah, it's because I didn't want to manage anybody,” so the first person I hired was a project manager.
That was by design, because in my little decision-making filter, I wanted to have a lot more freedom. You do have the luxury when you're in my position to do it, but I totally agree. Kind of reverse engineering out what your lifestyle is and what things are like for you, irrespective of the actual business or whatever, seems to have worked well in me now making decisions based on that. I still make decisions based on those decision-making filters when I'm hiring and with different strategic things.
Jonny Nastor: Have you got to go to Asia with your family yet?
Russ Perry: Not with my family. My wife is from Japan. She lived most of her life here, but her mom's from there. I did go to Japan in 2011.
Jonny Nastor: Nice.
Russ Perry: That was really amazing. Yeah, that was awesome. Our goal is to go back there. Her family lives in Kyushu, and so we want to go back there and spend some time. Maybe a summer.
Jonny Nastor: You're setting up your business to allow you to do that.
Russ Perry: Yeah. My business is totally remote. I run most of it from my laptop. I don't have an office. My staff, everything, all the systems are in the cloud, and we have a lot of team around the world right now. That's one angle that we have for Design Pickle is we have international designers working for us, so we’ve got to be very friendly to that remote type of style and workforce.
Hiring the Best People to Do Things You’re Not Good At
Jonny Nastor: That's very cool. That's very cool. All right. At the beginning, being able to assemble the right resources was your one thing that you can do. Now, this day and age, every blog post, every expert, is talking about the 80/20 rule, right?
Russ Perry: Mm-hmm.
Jonny Nastor: Do 20 percent, and get 80 percent of the results. Do what you're good at, and delegate the rest. Russ, could you please tell me something that you are not good at in your business?
Russ Perry: I am not good at a lot of things, depending on who you're talking to. One thing that I am challenged at is creating content that really resonates with any kind of marketing strategy. I like to write. I like to talk. I love podcasts. A lot of the stuff I create, I don't know really how important it is to my business. That's a challenge, I think, as we grow, and how important content is for marketing.
I'm also — I will admit this, and I apologize to any clients who listen to this podcast later on — I care for our clients, but I've had to become a lot more cold-hearted about our clients. So I'm not the right person when it comes to great customer service. The reason is because our product and our service is so straightforward that I get a lot of clients who want to brainstorm and have one-on-ones and talk. I feel so bad, but I have to always turn them down.
I'm trying to figure out a way around it, because it's just not scalable, is really the main thing. I have hundreds of clients now, so it's hard for me to chat with every single one of them and sit down. That's kind of a lame answer, I feel like, but I'm trying to figure out ways around it too, with again, delegating, outsourcing. How can we hire staff that can provide more attention to our clients? Because I'm definitely sucking at it right now.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, and it's not a lame answer at all. It's a great answer, because you have a total grasp on what it is. It wasn't even really fair, because earlier in the conversation, you said you knew that the thing you’re worst at is project managing, and so that was the very first person you hired. You had already said the one thing that you feel you weren't good at.
Russ Perry: That's true. I don't even think about that, because I just solved that problem. I was thinking of more of current things I'm struggling with right now.
Jonny Nastor: Right, but so many people start a business, Russ, and like, it takes them five years to realize that they're terrible at project managing.
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: They just think that the projects are all bad, not them. Then they’re finally like, “I should try a project manager.”
Russ Perry: Mm-hmm.
Jonny Nastor: I think you're way ahead.
Russ Perry: My previous agency, and this is scary to say, we actually were not as great at delivering the final product very often. That was a huge challenge. I say to any entrepreneur listening, that's got to be your foundational thing you have to be good at, is you have to make sure whatever you're selling delivers.
Because if you're worried about the delivery of your product or a service or whatever you're doing, then you'll never be able to scale sales, because your sales guys or your sales function will be like, “I don't want to sell what you're doing, because it's not working.” That'll really stunt the growth of your business.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah, exactly. So your core business has to be there.
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: Then there's always going to be, say, new — to use the term very loosely — projects or things that you're going to take on in your business, either to bring in new customers or to provide new services to those customers.
You know that content is a massive way to find customers at this point, but you don't find that you're that good at it. How is the process, or what is the process, that you go through now within Design Pickle to decide whether a new project is something that you should throw resources at or a direction that you should go?
Russ Perry: Yeah. Right now the way we have been determining a strategy is really around what our clients are asking for, as well as more foundational business functions. Building a sales team right now is really important, because we're not very big. I want to grow the business, because if you have cash, you can reinvest that and grow.
As far as the projects and the features and the things that we're doing, we're really looking at what our customers are asking us. The number one thing, actually related to the same, which is why I said we're not doing a good job, is how do we provide more value add to the small business owner to know how to use our service, to brainstorm and think of ideas?
If you and I have a one-on-one right now, Jon, I probably — like we were chatting before the podcast, I can think of 10 things for you to use Design Pickle — and you'd be like, “Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's great. Oh, I didn't even think of that. Oh, you're using it that way?” That takes time, and I can't do that en masse, so how do we create automation that does that? How do we hire somebody that can be like a creative coach to work with people one-on-one? I get that, and that's from our clients.
I'll bump into clients here in Arizona, or I'll talk to them online, and they're just like, “Hey, I love the service, but I'm running out of ideas. I need to know, how can I use it more? How can I best leverage it?” We'll chat, and then they'll be so inspired, but we need to figure out a better way to do that en masse.
We're generally answering. That's where I would start. Don't try to think of all the answers yourself in a vacuum. Ask your current clients, or ask the prospective clients that you want to go after. What would make their lives easier or your product more useful for that new vertical you're going after?
The Power of Knowing (That You Don’t Know Much)
Jonny Nastor: Unfortunately, though, sometimes we don't even know. Now that you've piqued my interest, what are these 10 things that I could be doing?
Russ Perry: Yeah.
Jonny Nastor: You know what I mean? It's so much value there that I'm not even aware exists.
Russ Perry: Yeah, and that's totally true. We don't know, and sometimes it is guessing.
I try to remind myself that right now, my goal for the business is to create a sustainable machine that is delivering a really great product, that we're finding prospective clients, and that we're making money along the way. All the decisions and all the things that I'm doing really have to tie into those foundational pieces, because I have really cool, creative ideas.
I want to have a pickle festival in Phoenix someday. I want to have a big celebration of pickles where we all come together and just share and eat pickles, because I love pickles. That's really not a strategic idea right now.
Jonny Nastor: But it's an awesome idea.
Russ Perry: It's such a sweet idea, right? Maybe have the old ska band, Skankin' Pickle, and all this stuff, but that's a really big distraction. I have to taper back the ideas.
Jonny Nastor: Excellent. Okay. This is going to put us to where we're going to wrap up.
Russ Perry: Cool.
Jonny Nastor: And I love it because you're talking about the goal for the business and this forward thinking that you're doing. This is something that I call ‘the entrepreneurial gap,’ which I think that sometimes we fall into as entrepreneurs and as dreamers.
I find that we are always looking ahead, right? One month, three months, six months, a year, three years, five years down the road, where we're going to be, how much better our business is going to be, how we're going to get to travel with our families, how we're going to get to do all of these things. And before we even seem to hit these goals, we set five or 10 loftier ones into the future. Sometimes we fail to stop and look at where we've come from.
Russ, I would love for you to stop right now for me. Turn around. Look at where you've come in the last 10 years, what you've learned, what you've accomplished as an entrepreneur, and tell me how you feel about that.
Russ Perry: Hmm. What a powerful closing question. I think I have evolved and really become much more of a humble person, knowing that I don't know a lot. Where I'm coming from, that is, when I had an agency, more of a traditional agency, you're hired to be the expert, whether that's marketing or SEO or design or branding. You really have to put a front on, to always be the expert and to be the person that has all the answers, because that's why they're paying you.
I think that developed a know-it-all attitude, and that’s not to say that I was a know-it-all like you see in the movies know-it-all, like the nerd know-it-all in class, but I just wasn't asking a lot of questions, and I was thinking we could do a lot more than we could, when really, we didn't know a lot of these answers, and I didn't admit that.
Looking back, I realized how many mistakes I made not taking the time to admit I don't know and to take the time to learn and to listen, and to find the answers or find the people with the answers. That's kind of where I'm at now. It's an open mindset, a learning mindset, always reading and trying to get better, and realizing that it's a long journey ahead. I'm not going to get there on my own, and I'm never going to know it all. I'm not. I don't have to be the expert, either.
Jonny Nastor: Yeah. I love it. It's a beautiful answer. We've got to talk about you and your business a lot in passing. Could you specifically tell the listener, Russ, where to find out about your business and where to find out about you?
Russ Perry: Yeah. Design Pickle, unlimited graphic design help for 195 bucks a month. You can find us at DesignPickle.com. We are on Instagram, @designpickle. You can see me dressed up as a pickle if you're into that kind of stuff. Then we do a little Twitter. Like I mentioned, we're working on our content.
I'm just @russperry, but you can contact me on Twitter or through the contact form on the site. I'd be happy to help. I monitor all inbound stuff, and you can reach me also at Russ@DesignPickle.com if you have a direct question you want to dive into.
Jonny Nastor: Excellent, so DesignPickle.com. The service looks amazing. I am hiring Russ's company today.
Russ Perry: Excellent.
Jonny Nastor: By the time you get to hear this episode, it's actually about three weeks later, and you will already see artwork by Design Pickle on the site, so you'll see how awesome it is.
Russ Perry: Awesome.
Jonny Nastor: Definitely check it out. I will link to it in the show notes, so it's easy for everyone to find. I'll link to your Instagram and at RussPerry.com as well.
Russ, thank you so much for taking the time to stop by and chat with me today. Please keep doing what you're doing, man, because it's really awesome to watch.
Russ Perry: Yeah, awesome. Thanks so much, Jon. This was a great time. I appreciate it.
Jonny Nastor: Russ, thank you so much for joining me today. That was a lot of fun. Design Pickle, I have to say — so Russ is not in any way paying me to say this. I wish he would pay me to say this, but that’s absolutely unnecessary. Design Pickle — I had never heard of it until I got to interview Russ, and then hearing him talk about it, I checked it out. And wow, it's a brilliant service. You pay once. You pay a monthly fee, and you get unlimited design from him — from his company, not even from him. I guess he doesn't do the work.
I've been using it. You can go now at HacktheEntrepreneur.com. Check it out, and you will see the artwork for Russ's show and the artwork for the last, probably, 40 shows before this. I've been really pushing this unlimited design thing. I've been doing not only my three episodes a week and social media, but we’ve been backtracking and going through all the old episodes and updating the artwork. They're doing brilliant work. I love it, so check it out for sure.
Russ, you're a smart, smart guy, and during this conversation, you said a lot of smart things, right? Didn't he? He did, totally. I need to go back to almost the beginning, because there was something that he said at the beginning that was just … it was the one thing, wasn't it? Did you get it? Did you hear it? Let's do it. Let's find the hack.
Russ Perry: People who are ‘lucky’ aren't necessarily getting more advantages than other people or the universe is favoring them. It's just that they're putting themselves out there more. They're trying more things. They're creating more connections that could lead to other stuff. And that to me is really how I interpret luck — just creating more of a mathematical probability that you're going to meet or get whatever you want.
Jonny Nastor: That's the hack. So, so, so well said, Russ. Luck’s a funny thing, isn't it? Luck is something that we can create this probability, mathematical probability, as Russ says, around by putting ourselves out there more, trying more things. How do you have a successful business? You probably start 10 that fail first. It's your first one that doesn't work. That's just not how it is. It looks like it may be from the outside.
There's nothing that frustrates me more, from a personal side, than when people — friends of mine — that, say, five years ago when I started building a business online and it was time to go out and do things, it was time to hang out, and I was working, not at my job, but afterwards, on creating something online, creating something that mattered, and creating something that could support me and my family. It was like, “Oh, what a waste of time. Don't do that. You already work all day. Why, blah blah blah?”
Now that I do this, and I don't have to work as much, and I can travel the world, and I can do all kinds of things, those same people say, “Wow, Jon, you're so lucky. You're so lucky.”
Is it luck, or is it the fact that I worked my ass off to do this? It's not luck. We can put ourselves in the way of luck, so that luck can find us. And it's absolutely true, Russ. You have to make yourself lucky. You really do. The world will conspire to help you do cool stuff if you put yourself out there more, if you write more, if you produce more episodes of podcasts, if that's what you're doing, if you build more products, if you build more apps, if you do more artwork. Whatever it is you do, do more of it.
Do more of it than you're already doing. I don't care if you think you're doing so much of it already. Do more of it. Trust me, because as Russ says, and I fully agree, you can create this mathematical probability for luck, and that luck will conspire to make you successful, to make you do cool stuff. Trust me. It will.
Thank you so much, Russ, for saying that, because that's so true, and it's such a misconception of luck, that you happen to be born lucky or with this horseshoe stuck somewhere that doesn't sound lucky at all. Thanks, Russ. I appreciate that.
All right, so DesignPickle.com is a great service. It's probably not for everyone, but it works well for me. I want you to go to HacktheEntrepreneur.com right now, scroll down a little bit to the podcast episodes, any of the last 40 probably at this point, and check out the artwork. It's really, really good. You're going to see. If you go through my most recent ones and then you keep scrolling through pages until you get to old, you'll see this, I guess, evolution.
I started out with artwork that was okay, and then it got a little bit worse for some reason. Then it got a little bit better, and then started getting worse actually again. Then I found Design Pickle because I got to talk to Russ. It's done wonders for the way my site looks, and it's really cool. I'm really, really happy. Just check it out, man. Go see if you like it and it might be something for you. Again, Russ is not in any way paying me to do this, but I do really, truly believe in his service.
Thanks again. I totally appreciate you taking the time to stop by with me. Please, until next time, keep hacking the entrepreneur.